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Activist, Kim Dadou Brown, A woman in a hoodie looks towards the right with grim determination. (Photo by David A. Nelson, © Grit Pictures LLC.)
October is National Domestic Violence Awareness Month, so we are revisiting a show from our archives about criminalized survival, the criminal justice system’s long practice of imprisoning survivors of intimate partner violence when they fight back against their abusers. We’ll hear from journalist Natalie Pattillo and filmmaker Daniel A. Nelson, who followed the stories of imprisoned women Kim Dadou Brown, Tanisha Davis and Nikki Addimando for their documentary film And So I Stayed. This show first aired in July 2023.
Featuring Music Credits: via WFMU free music archive
Making Contact Team
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TRANSCRIPT
Note: This episode first aired in July 2023. Nikki Addimando, who is mentioned in the story, was reportedly released from prison in January 2024.
Amy Gastelum: Today on Making Contact, we’re going to talk with the creators of the documentary film And So I Stayed. This award-winning film tells the story of three women who survived intimate partner violence only to land in prison after defending themselves. This is known as criminalized survival.
Natalie Pattillo: And I was like, wait…we are putting women and survivors in prison for fighting for their own lives?
Amy Gastelum: That’s Natalie Pattillo. She’s a journalist, an abuse survivor and co-producer of the film.
Natalie Pattillo: As filmmakers we’re out to tell this story in a way that it deserves to be told.
Amy Gastelum: All that, coming up on Making Contact. Before we start, I want to let you know that we will be talking about intimate partner violence or IPV. We have taken care not to include anything graphic but it may not be suitable for sensitive listeners. If you or someone you know needs help, you are not alone. The National Domestic Violence Hotline can be reached at 1-800-799-7233. This resource and others are posted on our website, focmedia.org. Okay, now to our interview with filmmakers Natalie Pattillo and Daniel Nelson.
So good to see you guys, and thank you so much for making the time to sit and talk with me today. I’m really excited to talk to talk about your film.
Daniel Nelson: Thanks for having us.
Natalie Pattillo: It’s a pleasure.
Amy Gastelum: I just was able to watch it last week, and when I was watching the film, something that struck me was that it starts out with Kim Dadoo Brown. And she’s sort of the matriarch in the film it seems like. She’s on the other side of a prison sentence and she has gone back essentially with her advocacy work to say, “I don’t want this to happen to anyone else.” How did you all get involved with Kim?
Natalie Pattillo: That’s a great question. So back in 2015, I was working on my master’s project at Columbia. And before really knowing what I was gonna cover, I knew that I wanted it to be about domestic violence. I had my own personal history, and my sister was killed back in 2010 by her abuser. So those two very personal experiences, kind of, were very formative to me as to why I wanted to pick domestic violence as an issue to cover. And that was pre-Me Too. I didn’t see a lot overly nuanced and sensitive coverage. And so I told a professor at the Dart Center for Trauma Journalism about my personal history and my drive. And he was like, “Have you ever considered covering the issue of women or survivors, who are criminalized for fighting back or even being coerced by their abuser to commit a crime?” And like, I couldn’t, my mind couldn’t – Like most people I think who aren’t familiar with criminalized survival, I couldn’t wrap my mind around it. And I was like, “Wait, like we are putting women and survivors in prison for fighting for their own lives?” When I had had that experience of my sister being killed – cause those to me, I was like, it’s very clear that’s what would’ve happened to the women had they not fought back.
Amy Gastelum: In 1991, Kim was in a car with her abuser when he physically attacked her, threatening her life. Kim reached below her seat where he kept a gun. She shot him to save her own life. Tanisha and Nikki, the other women in the film, were also charged for killing their abusers in a struggle to survive.
Natalie Pattillo: So I was just reaching out to organizations that worked with survivors who had been criminalized. Eventually one of the organizations that I reached out to put me in touch with Kim. And yeah, it was a phone call. She was like in a parking lot somewhere, and I was doing laundry in the basement of my apartment building. She asked me those questions like on the first call, like, “Why do you wanna do this?” And that’s when I shared the personal history part and that I just wanted to give the issue, the topic, its due diligence. When I started building trust with Kim and learning more about her story of fighting back against her abusive boyfriend, I just kept wanting to uncover what went wrong.
Amy Gastelum: Hey, it’s Amy again. I just want to jump in to give some context. First, In the US, one in four women and one in nine men are victims of intimate partner violence. COVID lockdowns made this so much worse. But what happens to victims when they fight back? A lot of times, they’re charged with violent crimes. IPV survivors are usually charged for these four things: physically defending themselves, failing to protect their children from abusive spouses. They’re also charged for crimes they committed under coercion from abusers. And if they’re undocumented, survivors are sometimes reported to immigration enforcement. A convergence of racist systems disproportionately criminalizes Black and Brown survivors. Sometimes the legal system doesn’t even acknowledge that IPV exists in queer relationships. Go to our website radioproject.org for more information.
Okay, we’re going back to our interview with Natalie Patillo and Daniel Nelson. They made the documentary film And So I Stayed. The protagonist, Kim Dadou Brown, helped write a bill that would take a history of domestic abuse into account when a judge sentences a criminalized survivor. The film documents Kim’s work on the bill.
Natalie Pattillo: I mean in the film you see she’s just this incredible person, just this compassionate powerhouse of a person who has been through so much adversity and used her pain for purpose and worked towards getting this bill to become a law so that other survivors wouldn’t have to spend years and years in prison. The fact that she trusted me was — I’m so grateful for, to this day, because I was just this grad student. I couldn’t promise her that this was gonna be in The New Yorker or The New York Times, or some big article that I was hoping would get published. She trusted me. I think a lot of it had to do with when she asked me point blank, “Why do you want to cover this story? Why do you want to cover my story?” And I shared a little bit of my personal experience.
Amy Gastelum: Yeah, and building trust that way. And then, Daniel, how did you get involved?
Daniel Nelson: Natalie and I went to school together at Columbia. And she had let me read a version of her written master’s thesis about Kim. And I just remember reading it and being so blown away by, not just the story and Natalie’s writing, but just Kim as a person and how compelling she was. I approached Natalie, and I asked her if she had any interest in turning the written version of her story into a documentary. I don’t think we knew what that meant necessarily at the time, all those years ago. But Natalie just said, “Well, let me talk to Kim. Let me see what she thinks. And if she’s on board, yeah, I’m for it.” So she talked to Kim, and Kim was on board. And that was, yes, about six years ago. And here we are now with a documentary.
Amy Gastelum: And here we are now. I was wondering if one of you could set up a clip that I’ve pulled of Kim trying to gather signatures for the DVSJA at the Women’s March in New York.
Natalie Pattillo: Yeah. The Women’s March, that was –
Daniel Nelson: I think that was January 2018.
Natalie Pattillo: We just followed Kim who was gathering signatures. What a prime time, when people are all fired up, ready to go. We want change, these issues matter to us. She used that opportunity as a time to be like, “Do you know that women and survivors are being incarcerated for fighting for their lives?” And there’s some beautiful moments, especially of her just looking so happy and free and just — it was really special to watch.
Kim Dadou Brown: Hi. Excuse me. I’m trying to get signatures for the DVSJA. It’s a bill we’re trying to get past. It’s for domestic violence survivors to not be re-victimized by the criminal justice system. It’s called the DVSJA the Domestic Violence Survivors Justice Act. What it is is a bill we’re trying to get passed in New York State that would give judges and DAs discretionary power when sentencing a woman convicted of a domestic violence crime. This bill will give judges and DAs time to force them to take notice that there is such thing as domestic violence. We’ve been working on this for eight years. And I just don’t want any other woman to spend over half her life in prison for defending herself.
Daniel Nelson: There were so many little moments during that day that really did a great job of just establishing who Kim is as a person. I mean, she is very passionate and really just has no fear when it comes to talking about this.
Amy Gastelum: That moment sets up who Kim is as a person, and it also sets up what the DVSJA is essentially. It gives you kind of an overview because she’s explaining it to the folks in the crowd, right? Can you talk about the DVSJA? What is it?
Natalie Pattillo: So it is New York’s Domestic Violence Survivors Justice Act. It’s a law that gives judges the discretion to take into consideration that intimate partner violence was a “significant contributing factor to the crime.” So there are two ways the law can work. It could work at trial when you’re being sentenced. You can ask for a DVSJA hearing, and the judge will decide whether or not they think the person is eligible. It can also be used retroactively as well for folks who are currently incarcerated. Kim will tell you, and even other experts, were not overly optimistic about it ever becoming a law. They still fought for it. I mean, this was 10 years in the making. This took a very long time. A lot of legislation does, but this, it’s wonderful. It’s a great tool. It’s not super ultra progressive. It still criminalizes the survivor or acts as something that has the notion that they should serve some amount of time.
Amy Gastelum: You’re still playing ball with the criminal justice system as it exists.
Natalie Pattillo: Exactly. So it’s kind of like they always say: “This is a get out of jail free card.” And it’s like, what, what card is that? So it’s an incredible tool. We’ve seen it work. We’ve seen it not work and create just utter devastation. I think there were times where we were filming, and we were like, “What are we doing?” It was incredible to follow Kim and just see her pure resilience and steadfast hope that maybe, even if she doubted it a lot, that it could happen. It was incredible to document that. But we were just like, “Where is this gonna go?”
Daniel Nelson: None of us really thought that this bill would ever get signed into law. Then something really great happened in 2018 with the midterms, and the New York State Senate went from Republican to Democrat for the first time in a really long time. I think because of that, they were able to push through a lot of this kind of legislation. A year after that in 2019, they were finally able to sign this bill into law. We kind of thought that at the time, “We finally have an ending to this film,” and, “Advocacy works!” and all that.
I think Natalie was a huge champion of just, “We need to follow this up. We need to see what happens next.” We need to see how this law is going to be implemented because the precedent is being set right now. And it’s still being set even now in 2023. So we decided to stay on and find other survivors who were maybe seeking relief from this new law re-sentencing. Is there anyone that’s now going to use this at the trial phase? That’s kind of how we pivoted and incorporated the stories of Nikki and Tanisha.
Lucy Kang: You are listening to Making Contact. Just jumping in here to remind you to visit us online. If you like today’s show or wanna leave us a comment, we have more information at focmedia.org. And now back to the show.
Amy Gastelum: Welcome back to the show. Today we are talking to Natalie Pattillo and Daniel Nelson, creators of the documentary film And So I Stayed. It tells the story of three women incarcerated for fighting back against their abusers. We’ve learned about Kim Dadou Brown’s story. In the second half, we’re going to hear about the other women in the film, Tanisha Davis and Nicole “Nikki” Addimando.
Natalie Pattillo: The beautiful thing about both Nikki and Tanisha is that Kim was already in contact with Tanisha through letter writing, and she was already in contact with Nikki’s family members. So, Kim gave them a sense of what our values were and what we were about. I think obviously that helped so much to have someone like Kim speak on our behalf as filmmakers who are not out to make a true crime. We’re out to tell this story in a way that it deserves to be told. Damn, it’s crazy to look back on all of that.
Amy Gastelum: Tanisha was serving a 14 year sentence when the DVSJA became a New York State law in 2019. Tanisha’s lawyers asked Natalie and Daniel if they could use their footage of interviews with Tanisha’s family. They hoped it would give the judge in her appeal a sense of who Tanisha was. So Natalie and Daniel put together a short film for them.
Natalie Pattillo: We really didn’t know what we were doing. We’re just hoping to help. We get a call from her lawyer — a very excited call. It was like four Facetimes. We learned that the judge watched the video, and they want to release her under the DVSJA.
Amy Gastelum: After eight years in prison, Tanisha was released for time served. She was the first domestic violence survivor to be resentenced under the DVSJA in her county.
Natalie Pattillo: It was kind of wild. We didn’t really know what our ultimate film would look like, we just wanted to keep to our North Star, which was to help free survivors who were unjustly incarcerated.
Amy Gastelum: You know, you guys are talking about the way that Tanisha and Kim and Nicole are sort of linked together. And I was really struck by one particular scene in the film where Kim actually goes when Tanisha is released from prison. So can one of you maybe just set up that scene for us?
Natalie Pattillo: I think we were all running very high [on emotions]. We couldn’t believe this person that we knew was finally going to be able to reunite with her son and her mom and her sister and her community. The sun was shining so brightly. The scene is super bright, aesthetically, but it was freezing that day. We waited forever and I will never forget the moment that she walked out.
[Audio clip from the film begins]
Tanisha’s Mother: Come on. Come on. I see somebody standing there.
Family Member: There she is.
Kim Dadou Brown: Tell me about seeing Nikki.
Tanisha Davis: Nikki?
Kim Dadou Brown: Yeah. Tell me about –
Tanisha Davis: Oh, she cried. She was so happy for me. But I’m definitely gonna try to do whatever I can.
Kim Dadou Brown: What did she say to you?
Tanisha Davis: She just…she wanna come home. She’s just –
Kim Dadou Brown: We’re gonna work on this.
Tanisha Davis: Yes. I told her, I said, I’m not giving up on her.
[Audio clip from the film ends]
Natalie Pattillo: It was kind of incredible that Tanisha and Kim have that moment at the end where they talk about Nikki and you see how it all ties together.
Amy Gastelum: Well, I was gonna tell you that when I was watching it and I realized in that moment: Kim is there. Tanisha is there. She’s just been released from prison. And Kim turns to Tanisha and is like, “How’s Nikki?” And I’m like, boom, oh my God. Tanisha and Nikki were in prison together. They knew each other there, and they knew each other’s cases. It was just a hugely impactful moment in the film for me watching. And Nikki is still in prison, right?
Natalie Pattillo & Daniel Nelson: Yeah.
Natalie Pattillo: She is, she is. I mean the fact that the judge didn’t think she was eligible to be considered under this law that had been passed was — heartbreaking doesn’t even capture that. It was wild to see that despite truly mountains of evidence – I know ’cause I’ve printed it all out, and it is mountains — it’s undeniable that the abuse was a significant contributing factor to the “crime.” And even processing with Kim, sometimes she’s like, “I feel like I failed Nikki.” I’m like, “No, Kim, you didn’t fail her. That’s the legal system. The bigger system did.” Seeing her separated from her kids learning about other survivors who are in similar situations, it’s really hard to process.
Amy Gastelum: In the film, Nikki’s sister holds a candle light vigil outside of Bedford Hills Prison to raise awareness about criminalized survival and Nikki’s case. Natalie and Daniel filmed it.
[Audio clip from the film begins]
Michelle Horton: I am standing here as someone who has been deeply affected by this issue. I am the one who has had to pick up the pieces for our family, who is caring for her two young children who have been traumatized first by the domestic violence they witnessed in their home — and then further by the sudden loss of both of their parents overnight. They’re both so innately in tune with their mother as children with strong maternal bonds often are. All of Nikki’s fear and anxiety was and continues to be felt through them. They are the ones who are hurt most from this separation. Nikki is not the only woman in this building behind us or in this country who have survived horrific abuse and are now criminalized in a system that can often mirror the coercive control of an abuser. Thank you for using your voices to speak for those women who are silenced, for using your power to join in collective action. Thank you for being here for Nikki.
[Audio clip from the film ends]
Amy Gastelum: Nikki is still in prison, but in 2021, her lawyers used the DVSJA in an appeal. Her 19 year sentence was reduced to seven and a half. Her family and supporters are expecting her to be released in 2024.
What’s the impact been of the DVSJA, if you guys had to sum it up some kind of way? Are there sentencing laws like this in other states? What does it really do? I hear you saying you’re still playing ball with a messed up criminal justice system, so it’s not like a golden ticket. It’s not the solution. But if you had to sum up what the impact has been, what would you say?
Natalie Pattillo: So far, on at least the re-sentencing for folks who are currently incarcerated as opposed to using it at trial, we’ve seen some incredible things. We really have. We’ve seen some people who are released under the DVSJA that spent over 20 years in prison — all of their adult life. It’s hard too, I think, ’cause the data had to catch up because there wasn’t any data.
The Survivors Justice Project, which is housed in Brooklyn Law School — Kate Mogulescu is a lawyer there who we’ve worked with and been in touch with over the years. Just seeing her and so many other legal teams take really important risks with just putting these applications together, [and] really taking a trauma-informed, sensitive approach to these cases I think is very healing to the survivors in a way where the legal system just does not allow for that. [In] Tanisha’s interview that we did only for the purpose of that application, she said, “The DVSJA is a chance for us to tell our story.” And I think that — to me — sums up the impact. It’s a way out potentially, but it’s a way to be heard and seen and hopefully believed.
Amy Gastelum: Ok, so New York’s Survivor’s Justice Project published a report in April this year. It’s a legislative blueprint for other states to follow. The reports says that so far, 40 people have used the DVSJA to get sentencing relief through appeals. 80% are people of color. Some other states considering similar bills are Louisiana, Minnesota, Oklahoma and Oregon.
Well, tell me this: what’s next for the film? How can people be involved? Tell me about the impact campaign.
Natalie Pattillo: Oh man. Impact campaign. SWe released in 2021. Since then, we’ve been hitting the ground running with a lot of screenings in various communities. Our goal right now is to get the film inside of prisons just so that survivors on the inside know that people are working to support their freedom and to validate their experiences. And so our hope is that [for] people in states that don’t have something pending like the DVSJA, that it ignites them to put together some sort of advocacy at the grassroots level and maybe spearhead something like the DVSJA in their own state.
If you’re listening and you are not sure whether your community has something like the DVSJA, get in touch with the public defender’s office. They probably know exactly what you’re talking about if you ask, “Do we put survivors in prison for fighting back or for being coerced by their abuser to commit a crime?” I’m sure the public defender would be able to tell you what is available legally in terms of relief for folks and maybe there can be a conversation had with other community members working with incarcerated folks on what they need to feel supported.
Amy Gastelum: Thank you both so much, for your time and for sharing your experience with me and for sharing the film with all of us. Is there anything else that you think that I should know or that our listeners should know?
Natalie Pattillo: We have a take action section in our website, so if they wanted to, you know, know more about how they could help the survivors, there’s a whole list of ways.
Amy Gastelum: Awesome. All right, y’all, thank you so much.
Daniel Nelson: Thank you. Thanks for having us.
Natalie Pattillo: Thanks so much, Amy.
Amy Gastelum: I’m Amy Gastelum. You’ve been listening to Making Contact. If you want to know more about the film or about criminalized survival, go to our website, radioproject.org. Until next week.
